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  • Anarcho-Syndicalism versus
    Maoism Debate

    Vol. 1: On Creating the
    Free World

    Discussion Four
    Between Punkerslut
    and Poxamerikkkana


    On the Leninist Revolutions
    of the Past

    From AllWorldWars.org
    Image: From "Russian World War 2 Propaganda
    Posters" Gallery from AllWorldWars.Org

    Date: June 20, 2009

    Post #01

    P. Radclif

    Poxamerikkkana to Punkerslut...

         You say revolutionary Cuba, China, etc. are/were "hell" for workers.

         If they were hell after the revolutions, what were they before? Ultra-hell?

         And how about the other countries with similar conditions that never had revolutions? What are they? Super-ultra-hell?

         If Cuba with guaranteed employment and housing and free healthcare and education are hell than what the fuck is the Dominican Republic???

         Those revolutions brought massive gains in living conditions. Life expectancy doubled in China, it went up a third in Cuba, it went up greatly in the USSR. Illiteracy was eliminated in Cuba and USSR and in China a majority of the population went from not being able to red .

         They weren't perfect but they were a hell of a lot better than what came before (and after).

    From RadicalGraphics.org
    Image: From "Anarchy" Gallery from RadicalGraphics.org

    Date: June 22, 2009

    Post #02

    Punkerslut

    Punkerslut to the Poxamerikkkana...

    Greetings,

    You say revolutionary Cuba, China, etc. are/were "hell" for workers.

    If they were hell after the revolutions, what were they before? Ultra-hell?

    And how about the other countries with similar conditions that never had revolutions? What are they? Super-ultra-hell?

         This entire conversation is shadowed by my belief in Anarchism. Lenin slaughtered the Anarchist Black Guards [*1] and the Bolsheviks killed the Kronstadt sailors. [*2] Students and workers who wanted to speak and form their own world were gunned down by Mao's People's Liberation Army. [*3] Stalin ordered the execution of George Orwell, [*4] because he fought with a Marxist militia, [*5] and he spoke vehemently in favor of the workers. In Cuba, Anarchists live, work, and operate underground, because they are prohibited from speaking, and those that do are silenced violently. [*6] In the Spanish Civil War, thousands of Anarchists were imprisoned, tortured, and killed by the Soviet forces. [*7]

         So, it seems to odd to me that you won't see the difference. If I were ever to enter the Leninist world, I would be executed on sight. Yet here I am, in a Liberal-Democratic government, and I'm saying everything I want to!

         The comparison is not that hard!! The Leninist government has slaughtered my kind, with extreme prejudice. The liberal governments, however, for all of their executions of Anarchists, are still letting me talk, speak, and say what I want.

         Super-hell is not where I am. Super-hell is the Leninist countries, where I'm a worker and I want to defend myself, but I'm killed by the government for doing so! And this -- this is what you call the workers' paradise!? It is far worse than any Liberal government, and one can even go so far as to say that even the Bourbon Monarchy, or the Chinese Han Dynasty, were more sympathetic to their people than any Leninist government.

    "Illiteracy was eliminated in Cuba and USSR and in China a majority of the population went from not being able to red."

         Yes, and even the pharaohs constructed the pyramids, the French king built Versailles, [*8] and the Tzar commissioned Saint Basil's Cathedral. [*9] Mussolini himself left behind the world's biggest and most accurate replica of the Ancient Roman City (built by Italo Gismondi from 1933-1937). [*10] The early United States government gave Bibles to the Natives to "civilize" them. [*11] And in Catholic countries, the pulpit has always been overflowing with information for the people to soak up.

         Culture has been provided, or at least, there has been an attempt to provide it. However, it was never out of concern or interest for those given the "enlightenment." It was to legitimize the government -- to make the powers and authorities of society appear important, helpful, moral, and essential to the common person. Even Ernest Hemingway was banned in the Soviet Union, despite the fact that he fought with the Marxists in the Spanish Civil War. [*13]

         Are we talking about a society that has been taught to read, but is unable to understand what is worth reading? In this case, it has only turned ignorant people into stubborn, ignorant people. The only thing they understand is what they read. And if reading one book means you've read them all, then even literacy won't empower the most common worker.

         For all the good that reading has done for those left, what about those Communists and Socialists who are no longer around? What about the millions of graves in Russia, [*14] Georgia, [*15] the Ukraine, [*16] Poland, [*17] all parts of Eastern Europe, [*18] in China [*19] and Korea [*20] and Vietnam [*21]?

    From Wikimedia Commons
    Image: Government Oppression in Communist China,
    Photograph From Wikimedia Commons

         One citizen is given a book, the other is given a bullet. And now you're going to praise the shooter for talking about books? If that's the case, I may as well believe that the Iraq War is going to liberate me, and that any talk of the massive civilian deaths is just "counter-revolutionary and reactionary."

         Those Communists who slaughtered the workers, are we to believe that they have been pardoned from this for teaching people to read? I can't imagine that the stateless, classless world is going to begin with the biggest massacre of workers and the common people. And yet, Authoritarian Communism has never started out on any other grounds.

    Andy Carloff,

    Resources

    *1. Red Army Journal, Krasnaya Gazeta, page 9, # Applebaum, Anne (2003) Gulag: A History. Doubleday. ISBN 0767900561.
    *2. "The Kronstadt Rebellion," by Alexander Berkman, 1922.
    *3. A Reassessment of How Many Died In the Military Crackdown in Beijing, The New York Times, 21 June 1989". New York Times Page.
    *4. Hernández, Jesús, How the NKVD Framed the POUM. Memoir of PCE minister in Republican Governments of Largo Caballero and Juan Negrín. Translated. Excerpted from Yo fui un ministro de Stalin. 339 pages. G. del Toro, Mexico, 1974. ISBN 84-312-0187-8. Reprinted online by "What Next?" Marxist journal, What Next Journal Page. *5. "Homage to Catalonia," by George Orwell, 1938.
    *6. Fernández, Frank, Cuban Anarchism: The History of a Movement, See Sharp Press.
    *7. See the documentary series "The Spanish Civil War," Part 5 of 6, Inside the Revolution, Granada.
    *9. Solnon, Jean François (1987). La cour de France. Paris: Fayard.
    *10. Bobrick, Benson. Ivan the Terrible. Edinburgh: Canongate Books, 1990 (hardcover, ISBN 0-86241-288-9).
    *11. "Walking Mussolini's Fascist Utopia," by Michael Z. Wise, published by the New York Times, Travel Section, Sunday, July 11, 1999, page 2, New York Times Page.
    *12. Robert Flood, The Rebirth of America (Philadelphia: Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation, 1986), p. 39. The Journals of the Continental Congress 1774-1789 (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1905), Vol. VIII, p. 731-735.
    *13. "The Spanish Civil War," by Hugh Thomas, 1961.
    *14. "My Disillusionment in Russia," by Emma Goldman, New York: Doubleday, Page & Company, 1923. Also see, "The Bolshevik Myth," by Alexander Berkman, New York: Boni and Liveright, 1925.
    *15. Lang, David Marshall (1962), A Modern History of Georgia, pp. 264-265. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson.; and, Berets, Sergey, ?????? ????????????????? ???????? (Crisis of the Communist movement). News. March 6, 2006, BBC Page.
    *16. Stalislav Kulchytsky, "Demographic losses in Ukrainian in the twentieth century", Zerkalo Nedeli, October 2-8, 2004. Available online in Russian and in Ukrainian. Zerkalo Nedeli.
    *17. Decision to commence investigation into Katyn Massacre, Ma?gorzata Ku?niar-Plota, Departamental Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation, Warsaw 30 November 2004, (Internet Archive) (also see the press release online), last accessed on 19 December 2005, English translation of Polish document. IPN.Gov.
    *18. http://www.ustrcr.cz/en/august-1968-victims-of-the-occupation ; Aktualne.Centrum.CZ Page.
    *19. "The Burning Forest: Human Rights in China," by Simon Leys, 1978. As for the five million executions estimate: (A conservative estimate, advanced by one of the most cautious and respected specialists of contemporary Chinese his-tory, Jacques Guillermaz, in Le Parti Communiste chinois au pouvoir [Paris: Payot, 1972], 33, n. 1).
    *20. "Selected Prison Camps in North Korea and their Locations" (PDF). The Hidden Gulag. HRNK.Org Page.
    *21. Sidney Jones, Malcolm Smart, Joe Saunders, HRW. (2002). Repression of Montagnards: Conflicts Over Land and Religion in Vietnam's Central Highlands, Human Rights Watch. ISBN 1564322726.


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